last updated 1 hour, 33 minutes ago
- tldr; ease is not the enemy of social progress. it’s actually kind of weird to put them in direct opposition like that; making things easier can often be good for people and the planet. the ways people have gone about chasing ease might be (and have been!) shitty but doesn’t mean that the concept is bad.
- what does "inconvenience is the cost of community" and "if you want a village, be a villager" even mean?
- sort of based on "feeding vs being fed" (i need to "feed" - give to, help, nourish - others, as well as be "fed" myself)/"putting cash in the bank vs cashing out" (i need to put "cash" into the system - help, support - to receive "cash" when i need it) models. both are ways of saying "you have to put in to get out" which i don't think stands up.
- i think part of my hesitancy with the whole thing is that some people just have loads of “cash”/”food” (or more ability to make, find or buy it) and other people really don’t. are those with more inherently more deserving of community?
- someone being hard to reach often means they need the help and support more and are less likely to be seen as worthy of it, or at least supported to be in community.
- wanting to act, being able to act, and your action being a useful one are all sliders set to different points.
- i guess some configs of that would mean you are willing, able and your actions are all not useful, but maybe you aren’t willing to change what you offer or hear feedback… would that make you a villager, but a shit one, or someone who is too wedded to the convenience of the well worn path?
- sort of based on "feeding vs being fed" (i need to "feed" - give to, help, nourish - others, as well as be "fed" myself)/"putting cash in the bank vs cashing out" (i need to put "cash" into the system - help, support - to receive "cash" when i need it) models. both are ways of saying "you have to put in to get out" which i don't think stands up.
- how does convenience relate to technology?
- technology famously is supposed to make difficult and/or tedious tasks much less difficult and less tedious.
- washing machines? dishwashers?
- i think a lot of people would see this as facetious; is it only not okay when another human is directly involved in the loop? is it only not okay when the technology is already normalised decades ago?
- threshing machines
- weaving and the luddites
- i think a lot of people would see this as facetious; is it only not okay when another human is directly involved in the loop? is it only not okay when the technology is already normalised decades ago?
- what specifically is dehumanising about convenient technology?
- labour conditions?
- i agree with this! amazon and food delivery apps and all flavours of ghost work! but don't think it's an unchangeable fact and also:
- do workers that work in places with face to face customer service needs as their primary concern have better/"more" rights? i don't think so for the most part, and i don't think it's primarily because they come face to face with customers that these gains are made.
- issues with rights in delivery systems are mostly because everyone is a contractor/gig worker, and they have no collective bargaining rights automatically, and have to fight for unions and representation in ways that haven't been done before.
- lack of ongoing relationships? "never leaving your home"?
- why do people think the people being paid to talk to them (baristas, grocery store workers, shopkeepers) are the ones that make a community a community?
- i agree with the argument that using amazon in particular is bad, partly cos why throw gasoline on a forest fire, but i think that there are loads of ways that better your local community to have a "convenient" life.
- i don't agree that ordering online means you are cutting off some vital and important community aspect to your life. you could order from local or national places, rather than huge multinationals. even if you order online internationally you might have an email exchange with someone about questions you have about a cardigan, and you're more likely to bond over OMG a COOL CARDIGAN that you would if you just bought whatever was in front of you. what is the difference between that and asking questions to someone in person?
- the weird superiority people have about doing things in person.
- someone still has to bring you your shit, though i guess many humungo companies are trying to push drones/robots in some countries?
- in-post style lockers and the secondhand economy
- why do people think the people being paid to talk to them (baristas, grocery store workers, shopkeepers) are the ones that make a community a community?
- apps like deliveroo and grocery delivery
- normal in the uk to get weekly groceries delivered but maybe less so in other countries? get that impression from doordash in the u.s. at least
- classism and ableism
- the workers and their rights
- "there's an app/website for that"
- apps and websites in the business of helping people make friends and lovers
- "why do all your friends have to be hot?" re finding all your friends from ex-lovers/on dating/swipe-based apps
- "make friends in whatever situation you happen to find yourself in!" apps
- why is doing this analog aka going to a meetup somehow seen as less grim, even if you are paying regardless?
- apps and websites in the business of helping people make friends and lovers
- "why don't people call/go in person"
- labour conditions?
- does technology actually makes things easier, or does it just move the friction?
- friction - technology is usually seen as a way to remove it, or at least sold that way.
- this lack of friction is what is often called convenience in this conversation.
- contact vs. friction; in contact there is mutuality, you can't have one sided contact.
- you can't have community without contact, i agree with that, but i think you can have it with no (or imperceptibly low) friction. "you're all so easy to be around"/"this is the easiest community group to moderate"
- facebook/meta & careless people
- facebook made it easier to have a sea of friends, events and groups.
- did it at a high cost!
- eventually/gradually their rule over the social sphere has been eroded, and nothing has popped up to fill the hole. good, probably?
- "town square"/online third space provided by megacorps seems to always go this way?
- facebook made it easier to have a sea of friends, events and groups.
- friction - technology is usually seen as a way to remove it, or at least sold that way.
- Workism/christian work ethic/puritanism
- “If you’re sick of hell, build heaven” (i love the image but-)
- everyone is tired of building and working and striving and hustling
- this point can be made more or less sympathetically in my view. some people are like “well you don’t want to be a villager so you don’t really deserve a village” and i hate this immediately.
- throughout history (and arguably still today) for most people have very little financial/time/circumstance flexibility most people had no choice if they were villagers or not. what does it mean to be a villager when you have no choice in the matter?
- community is "contribute or suffer/perish"?
- even being less hyperbolic, we have our fundamental thrownness and our human need for companionship and community.
- ramblings of the deranged
- if you're lonely you need to try harder
- if you don't have a community, you are not okay with inconvenience
- if you don't have a village, it's cos you're not being a villager
- “If you’re sick of hell, build heaven” (i love the image but-)
- community isn't the biggest draw for everyone to get involved in making the world better, especially the way its currently sold
- maybe people want to do things they enjoy and focus mostly on affinity based reasons for doing something
- not everyone was born or will grow to do the work that they think is most valuable
- most people need some incentive to do most things, especially under the crushing weight of capitalism. often that motivation is "it's fun and rewarding" or "it keeps me and mine alive" and selling community as "inconvenient and unavoidable work" isn't really a selling point
- also not saying that we should "just" give into tech overlords; go local! go national! and international! build rapport and community through your online interactions! if you're speaking to a human (or want to) act like it! (i resent call-to-actions as a need for this kind of thing, can't i just leave youse with a provocation? but i did it anyway; you're welcome)
- if you CAN'T or DON'T WANT TO then i still think you deserve all the community and friendship and love you desire, and i hope things improve for you, okay?
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